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Recently, the podcast "A diversion from the East to the West" invited Chen Liwen, the founder of "Zero Abandoned Villages", to talk about how to promote garbage sorting in rural areas of China. Chen Liwen published a series of "Forty Years of Garbage Recycling" in The Paper. She studied the history of garbage sorting and recycling in China at Memorial University of Newfoundland and University of Southern California. After returning to China in 2017, she began to promote garbage sorting in rural areas. This article is authorized to sort out the contents of this podcast.

A diversion from the East to the West (Xu Tao): How did you get interested in garbage in the first place?

Chen Liwen:I grew up in the countryside of Hebei. At that time, the environment and natural conditions were very good. I could directly contact the land and wilderness in spring, summer, autumn and winter, and I unconsciously left a brand in my heart.

At the beginning of 2009, I began to do environmental protection. My charity Beijing Global Village organized an activity to visit a landfill in the south of Beijing. The sour and disgusting smell of the garbage dump suddenly hit my taste, and the garbage mountain dozens of meters high hit my eyes.

In the plain of North China, in order to bury garbage, we must first dig and do anti-seepage treatment. After that, it will be filled up continuously. Generally, one or two floors will be filled, and the first floor is nearly 10 meters high. We go to the same landfill several times a year. The first time I went there, it was not high, or it was still empty. After three months, I went there again and went up with a high degree of "rubbing".

I have a friend from the University of California, Berkeley, who was studying waste. I went to the waste recycling market with him, and then went to the waste trading market between the Fifth and Sixth Ring Roads in Beijing. Many people can clearly distinguish these recyclable items they bought and picked up-plastics are even divided into dozens of categories. Recyclable materials are sorted by them and sold, or transported to downstream factories as renewable raw materials for production. Without these industrial chains, recyclables cannot become renewable resources.

I found that waste recycling is not just an economic activity. Garbage is not only an object, but also related to people-whether it is a sanitation worker or a person who recycles waste. I grew up in the country and lived frugally. If we can live a moderate life, the problem of garbage can be solved from the perspective of people.

For me, an important reason for garbage sorting is that from 2009 to 2015, I did some research all over the country and contacted many people living around landfills and incineration plants.

Maybe a few people will think, where did the garbage go? Is there anyone around the garbage mountain? With the development of the city, landfills may be built in places where people live. For example, the Asuwei landfill in Beijing is located in the North Sixth Ring Road. When we investigated it, the villagers said that for more than 20 years, they dared not open the window in summer-because it stinks.

In April 2010, I went to investigate the families affected by garbage incineration in Hai ‘an County, Nantong, Jiangsu Province. There is a child with cerebral palsy, because his mother lived 200 meters away from the garbage incineration plant when she was pregnant. People don’t know that the waste gas from incineration plants may pose a threat to pregnant women. The child was born on May 12th, 2008, and it was later discovered that he had severe cerebral palsy. Later, his father found that some of the growth characteristics of children are the poisoning performance of harmful substances discharged from garbage incineration. For example, dioxin, a colorless and odorless primary carcinogen.

I was particularly impressed that one night, the child’s father asked us to have a look. His child had bitten his tongue because of severe cerebral palsy, which induced epilepsy. We have been to his house four times, and there is no smile on their faces.

In 2014, we went to the garbage incineration plant in Guodingshan, Wuhan. Some children suffered from respiratory diseases due to air pollution and had several operations. Some people who live around the garbage incineration plant can’t move away and have to live there. Their psychological stress and health are affected beyond our imagination. Ordinary people don’t know how to speak. The father of the child mentioned above is very courageous.

A diversion: will you solve the practical problems if you go to investigate?

Chen Liwen: We have spent a lot of energy on research, and tried to promote the relatively safe discharge of landfill sites or incineration plants by applying for information disclosure and talking with enterprises and local governments. But this is not the root of solving the garbage problem. The fundamental question of garbage is, what should we do after garbage is produced? We need a foothold to minimize the garbage problem and reduce dependence on landfill or incineration. At that time, everyone thought of the way-garbage classification.

In 2015, I went abroad to study, because the research brought me great pressure, and I felt helpless because my energy was exhausted. Reading is a process of knowledge storage. I remember studying a case about the marginalization of Indians in the use of resources. In fact, this is the same as the fact that the scavengers lose their right to speak in the process of urbanization. In fact, the root cause is the use of resources and land.

After returning to China in 2017, I thought, what should I do?

At that time, there were two directions, one was organic agriculture and the other was garbage. It happened that a former colleague had a project with the China Foundation for Poverty Alleviation. He was doing poverty alleviation in a village and encountered a serious garbage problem. He asked me if I could see how to do garbage sorting. Because to do tourism development, there can be no garbage.

Before industrialization, there was no garbage in most rural areas of China. Things planted in the land are eaten, straws and the like can be fed to livestock, and livestock manure can be composted into nutrients for planting. This is an ecological circulation system. However, after the 1980s, the self-sufficient life in rural areas was broken. If there were foreign purchases, there would be packaging, which would lead to garbage problems. After 2000, there were more and more plastics in rural areas. At that time, there were two ways in the countryside, one was to burn them all; The second is to dump garbage in potholes, including ponds, like my hometown.

I remember that after the Wenchuan earthquake, we went to Songpan, Sichuan. I will never forget that scene. There was garbage collection in that village, so we followed the old man’s three-wheeled garbage truck to see where the garbage finally went. I had no idea that when the garbage bucket was turned over, all the garbage went directly into the river and continued to pollute the water system.

In 2017, the final destination of garbage in Nanxun Village, Hebei Province was a mountain 20 kilometers away. Chen liwen

In fact, rural areas are very suitable for garbage sorting, especially after dry and wet sorting, which can be recycled on the spot. There are two kinds of rural garbage, one is the product of growing from the land; The other is the chemical products produced by industry. It is easier to separate the first kind of garbage and return it to the field by composting or other means.

In addition, the final task of garbage sorting is people’s work, and it is necessary to get through every family. The city is a stranger society, but the countryside is an acquaintance society. So my prediction at that time was that it might be better to do garbage sorting in rural areas than in cities.

I remember when I first came to work in the first village, many people said, what kind of garbage sorting should be done in the countryside? The subtext is, the city hasn’t done it yet. What are you going to do in the countryside?

A diversion: How did you start garbage sorting in the first village?

Chen Liwen:The first village is Nanyu Village, Hebei Province, and we are a little bold. The first thing I did at that time was to buy a trash can, a garbage collection car, and a place to compost. Everything was implemented before it was promoted to the people. We raised a sum of money to do these things.

I arrived in the village at the beginning of July 2017, started working in the village on August 8, and officially started garbage sorting on September 4. We are encouraged by many things in the process.

Ordinary people don’t know what garbage sorting is about, but they don’t exclude outsiders from doing it. They feel that outsiders have come to help us solve the garbage problem. Every time an uncle sees us, he says, I can find you a job. I said, wait, we’ll send you two barrels later.

Later, we did the launching ceremony of garbage sorting in the village, and all the people came to help us put up explanatory stickers. On September 5th, we collected and transported garbage for the first time, and went door to door to do the work. At that time, the garbage taken out by every family was mixed, so we used clips to clip it out and teach them. Many people learned it three times, and there were basically no obstacles. I met only two families in that village who didn’t want to part. Because I feel troublesome, I just want to throw it out casually. In fact, it is unrealistic to ask everyone to meet the standards.

At the garbage sorting mobilization meeting in Nanyu Village, Hebei Province, the banner was old and printed with new words. Chen liwen

There is another thing that impressed me extremely. A woman came out to take out the garbage, but the garbage was mixed. We told her at that time, but we didn’t get a response. Later we learned that she couldn’t speak or hear. Coincidentally, although her daughter is not in the village, she is in the WeChat group of garbage classification. The daughter said that her father can read. We taught her father by writing and drawing, and the next day it was clear.

After working door to door for two weeks, we found that as long as all the hardware is prepared, the people can get a good share.

A diversion: at the beginning, everyone may be more enthusiastic. Can this matter persist?

Chen Liwen:We had no experience in the first village. After a few months, we went back and found that some families were not classified and the village committee did not manage them. So when we arrived in the second village, we realized that we couldn’t do the door-to-door explanation, and we should give it to the village Committee or someone in the village who can take care of it. Later, we went to places where the local government was willing to do garbage sorting.

In 2018, when we finished the second village, we realized that the management of garbage sorting could not be completed at the village level. Because the leading system of the village is the village Committee, it cannot form constraints, but there are government constraints at the township level. Later, Dongyang Township, Guangfeng District, Shangrao City, Jiangxi Province contacted me, and I made a condition whether I could find a township. Finally, I found Dongyang Township.

Wang Shuji, Party Secretary of Dongyang Township, agrees with garbage classification. He asked me: Will garbage sorting be expensive? I said: A village will not exceed 100,000. He said, that’s acceptable.

In November 2018, I was still in my hometown. Wang Shuji asked a director of the township government to come to me with the enterprise and two village committees. After seeing the situation in my hometown, they said that your house is full of garbage, and everyone dares to do garbage sorting. We have been doing garbage collection and transportation in Dongyang Township for four or five years, and of course we have more courage to do it.

At the beginning of December 2018, I went to Dongyang Township. After I went there, I found out that Wang Shuji had taken people to visit several places in Zhejiang, and he himself studied environmental protection. He knows very well that the garbage is only collected and cleared away, but it does not solve the problem.

With the support of the township government and Guangfeng District, things are going very smoothly. The garbage sorting bucket was quickly arranged, and the sorting collection vehicle was also arranged. The composting plant was built in less than two weeks. At that time, we removed the big barrels from the street and replaced them with two small barrels for classification in each household.

There is one thing I didn’t know until later. The villagers said: the vats can’t be removed. What if everyone litters? Secretary Wang said: Since Miss Chen has experience, we should trust her.

The day after the barrel was withdrawn, a group of people discussed it in the street. A former village committee member said angrily, "Get the vat back quickly. How can we throw away the garbage?"? I said, didn’t I send you two buckets? He said: how can this be put down?

He doesn’t really know what those two small trash cans mean. Therefore, we didn’t make it clear to everyone before withdrawing the bucket.

Hearing the sound of the horn, the villagers came out to sort out the garbage. Chen liwen

Later, we observed in the village. Some people said that there might be dung in the diapers used by children, and the smell would attract dogs to dig the trash can, which is small and easy to be knocked down by dogs.

I thought these complaints were good because they were willing to participate. If we introduce them patiently, they will accept them slowly. Now, they feel that the garbage is cleaner after sorting.

In fact, the vats in rural areas are far apart. It takes a long way to throw garbage, and those who are troublesome will throw it casually. But if there is a set of barrels at your door, it will become easier. There is a great change in Dongyang Township. After putting the rotten garbage into the green bucket, many people think it can be used as fertilizer, so they take it back to the field to grow vegetables. In the past, garbage received from landfills had to be weighed and settled. One month after garbage sorting, the amount of garbage decreased by half in the same month of the previous year.

Some village committees only participated in garbage classification in the early stage, and when they understood garbage classification in the later stage, they worked with the people in their own way. In an acquaintance society, if village committees go door-to-door to mobilize, ordinary people will soon be able to keep up.

A diversion: where did the last vat go?

Chen Liwen:Barrels are put on garbage trucks to collect garbage. After nearly two years of garbage sorting in Dongyang Township, revenue and expenditure have reached a balance. Moreover, the money spent now is also less, including the treatment fee and transportation fee for transportation to the landfill. The most important thing is that village committees and ordinary people have been mobilized, and garbage sorting has improved the relationship between cadres and the masses.

At the beginning, some village committees told Secretary Wang: Is it ok not to do it? Wang Shuji said: If the whole town does it, you have to do it. After finishing, the village cadre felt that it was not as difficult as expected.

Another village Committee said: I don’t know the classification of garbage. How can I tell the people?

When he finished, he felt a sense of accomplishment. Because the people do not reject this matter, and they agree with it. Therefore, we need to train village committees slowly so that they can also explain the problem of garbage management.

The sorting collection vehicle in Nanyu village is a low-chassis tricycle transformed by uncle of the repair shop in the neighboring village. Chen liwen

We now have three strategic directions. First, we will continue to do garbage sorting practice and constantly gain practical experience and lessons. The second is to be an education center. We have established an education base for rural waste sorting in Dongyang Township, and many people have come to learn from it. Third, continue to reduce waste based on areas that have been classified.

A diversion: What is your biggest challenge now?

Chen Liwen:The biggest challenge is sustainable management. Take Dongyang Township as an example. If Secretary Wang is transferred, can garbage classification form a normal operation and management mechanism? We want to try to solve this problem through two channels. One is to help the township formulate an assessment mechanism; The second is to make the scale go up a step, such as covering Guangfeng District and Shangrao City. The larger the regional scale, the lower the risk of sustainability.

In fact, the economy is also very important. It takes about 300 yuan to treat a ton of garbage in rural areas, which is not the money for pollution control and building garbage incineration plants. All this money comes from public finance, that is, taxpayers’ money, but we always feel that it is someone else’s money. This creates an illusion that you can throw rubbish at will.

Garbage classification is not only a scientific problem, but also a social problem. How do we face our production and lifestyle? Most consumers choose products subconsciously. What we should consider is how to restrain the choice of consumption in public governance. For example, how to change disposable items into reusable materials?　

A diversion: can you recommend one or two books?

Chen Liwen:When I first entered the environmental protection industry, I watched Silent Spring, which was an important node that triggered the American environmental movement. I also recommend you to watch a documentary "Plastic Ocean". Plastic makes our life convenient, but it also causes serious environmental pollution, the essence of which is health. Now many chronic diseases are related to the use of plastics.

Poster for the documentary "Plastic Ocean"

I do environmental protection myself, and I have to do it myself. I have never ordered takeout, express delivery is inevitable, and I will try to avoid using disposable items. I believe in the strength of individuals, and I also think that the constraints of social governance are very important. The two complement each other.

　　Some time ago, I saw a video released on Jimmy Lin Weibo, which actually opened an Android interface with an iPhone. My first reaction at that time was that I didn’t believe it and thought it was a fake video. But what I didn’t expect was that a few days later, this artifact "Mecha" that allows the iPhone to run Android system opened a press conference, which made me have to admire the scientific development now!

　　Fortunately, less than two weeks after the Mecha was released, the author got a testing machine, and I can enjoy playing this black technology. Today, I will talk to you about the feeling of using it.

　　From the product category point of view, the mecha is different from any existing iPhone accessories, which is amazing. At first glance, it is an iPhone case, and it also has the function of charging treasure. But in fact, its body also has a complete set of mobile phone hardware and Android operating system, which is the secret of the mecha’s ability to let the iPhone run Android.

　　I believe that many friends who saw Jimmy Lin Weibo are very eager to understand the principle that Mecha makes iPhone run Android, and so am I. Get the mecha and after the successful installation, just roughly know what’s going on. First of all, install the mecha’s APP, then install the iPhone on the mecha, press the power button on the back of the mecha, open the mecha’s APP and follow the prompts, and then you can see the magical scene in Jimmy Lin Weibo.

　　After this set of actions is done, the author speculates that the principle is this: the mecha has built-in complete smart phone hardware, which is equivalent to a computer. Connecting with the iPhone is equivalent to using the screen of the iPhone as its own display and touch screen. Of course, it is not enough to display the picture. We have to open the iPhone’s microphone, microphone, camera, notification, Bluetooth and other permissions to the mecha to achieve complete functions. So, this is actually not to let "iPhone run Android system", but to let "iPhone become a touch screen of Android phone".

　　Next, we are concerned about the hardware performance of the mecha. By setting the menu, we can see that the built-in Mecha is a MediaTek MT6735 chip with 2GB of memory, which is an 8-core mobile phone chip with mid-range positioning, and it was popular in last year’s thousand yuan mobile phone. Compared with another mobile phone that also uses MT6735, it is found that the performance of the two phones is basically the same, so it seems that the hardware performance of the mecha is still fully exerted. However, it is worth noting that the screen output of the mecha is actually 720p, not 1080p of the iPhone 6plus screen, so the 3D running will be a little higher, and the visual effect displayed on the iPhone screen is not very sharp.

　　The MT6735 chip allows Mecha to support the 4G networks of China Mobile and China Unicom. Inserting a second SIM card into the SIM card slot of the mecha can turn the iPhone into a dual-card dual standby, which has fulfilled our dream for many years! Through the actual measurement, both SIM cards can receive and send calls and text messages normally. Or you can insert an Internet card into the mecha and use it as a mobile WiFi, which is also a way of playing. I don’t know if anyone else remembers the "apple peel". Speaking of this, I feel that Mecha is really a super enhanced version of apple peel.

　　Some use feelings

　　Although Mecha is the first generation product, its maturity is very high from the author’s use process. The connection between iPhone and Mecha, as well as the call of Mecha to iPhone hardware and software resources are smooth, and there has never been a chain drop. Use WeChat, make phone calls, send text messages, etc. in the mecha. If there is any new news, a notification will pop up in the iPhone system in time. The only BUG I found was that if I borrowed an iPhone camera to take pictures in the mecha, it was only 300,000 pixels, but I don’t think anyone would hurt enough to take pictures in the mecha.

　　In addition, there is another place that I am not satisfied with, that is, the mecha comes with the Android system provided by APUS, with too many pre-installed applications and advertisements. The company that launched Mecha is Haima Play. Their main business is the Android emulator on the PC side, and they should have the technical force to launch their own Android system. However, it is suggested that a variety of Android interfaces should be provided for users to choose and install. My personal favorite is the Android native system.

　　In addition to using the iPhone as the monitor of the mecha, and using the receiver and microphone of the iPhone to make phone calls, there are other intercommunication functions between the two. For example:

　　1. The pictures of iPhone can be transferred to the mecha, which can be regarded as an expansion of iPhone. However, the mecha itself has only 16GB storage space, and a memory card cannot be inserted. I believe the next generation of products will be improved.

　　2. Mecha can be used as an emergency charging treasure for iPhone. You can choose whether to supply power to iPhone in the settings, but it is recommended to turn off the Android system in the Mecha at this time, otherwise, if both devices use electricity at the same time, they will soon run out.

　　In terms of grip, the mecha is very delicate, with a little rubber feeling, which provides protection for the iPhone from every angle. If it falls to the ground, it should greatly reduce the risk of broken screen. It is a bit heavy to use the mecha as a mobile phone case, but after all, it also integrates the battery and motherboard, so it should be compared with the official charging case of iPhone. The iPhone 6s version of Mecha weighs 84 grams, while the plus version weighs 109 grams, which is still acceptable.

　　If there is anything that needs to be improved, it should be battery capacity. As mentioned earlier, if you really want to use the mecha as an emergency charging treasure, it is best to turn off the Android system inside, otherwise the two systems will soon run out of 2500mAh batteries when they use electricity together. In addition, I feel that the APUS system pre-installed in the mecha is not very power-saving, and I hope the next generation of products can be improved.

　　To sum up, the mech can be regarded as the most surprising accessory of the iPhone so far, which has realized the two ideas that the iPhone runs Android system and the iPhone turns into a dual-card dual standby, which have always been unattainable. I hope there will be more such cool products in the future.

　　Xinhua News Agency, Belgrade, April 30th?Title: Face common challenges and create a better future — — The concept of community of human destiny guides the development of human civilization.

　　Xinhua News Agency reporter Liu Chen Xu Haijing

　　On April 30th, the national high-end think tank of Xinhua News Agency released the think tank report "The Times Value and Practical Achievements of Building a Community of Human Destiny" (Serbian Edition) in Belgrade, Serbia. The report holds that, as a Chinese solution to global challenges, the concept of a community of human destiny conforms to the common values and interests of all mankind, and has brought huge dividends to the world, and will continue to play an important role as a clear banner leading the progress of human civilization in the future.

　　The world today is experiencing a great change that has never happened in a century. Countries are interconnected and interdependent to an unprecedented extent. At the same time, peace deficit, development deficit, security deficit and governance deficit are increasingly prominent, and the global multilateral governance system is facing severe challenges. How to find the spiritual guidance for the sustainable development of human civilization in line with the ultimate concern for human destiny has become a problem that the whole world must answer.

　　Facing the questions of the world, the history and the times, the Supreme Leader of president, China put forward the Chinese plan of building a community of human destiny 11 years ago. To promote the building of a community of human destiny is not to replace one system with another, nor to replace another civilization with one civilization. Instead, countries with different social systems, ideologies, histories and cultures and different levels of development share interests, rights and responsibilities in international affairs, which is the future of people all over the world.

　　The concept of building a community of human destiny provides oriental wisdom for solving global challenges. Promote the building of a community of human destiny, emphasizing "commonality", promoting "integration" and advocating "integration". It is the way for all countries to cope with challenges, resolve disputes and bridge differences, and it is the China prescription to promote human society to work together to build a lasting peace, universal security, common prosperity, openness, tolerance and clean and beautiful world. At the same time, the concept of building a community of human destiny is also the essential requirement for realizing Chinese modernization, and the two are organically linked and inseparable. "Build yourself up", persist in building a community of human destiny in the process of Chinese modernization, and provide new opportunities for the world with its own new development, so that people of all countries can benefit from the development of China.

　　The idea of building a community of human destiny is a concentrated expression of the common values and pursuits of the world. Although the language carriers, thinking frames and belief bases of various civilizations in the world are different, the goal of pursuing peace and development is common, the desire to establish a fair and just order is common, and the pursuit of democracy and freedom is common. As an inclusive ideological system, the idea of building a community of human destiny draws on the outstanding achievements of the world’s diverse civilizations, reflects the universal aspirations and common aspirations of all mankind, condenses the consensus of people of different nationalities, faiths, cultures and regions, draws the greatest concentric circle among countries with different cultural backgrounds and development levels, transcends the old thinking of zero-sum game, power politics and cold war confrontation, and becomes a clear banner leading the trend of the times and the direction of human progress.

　　The concept of building a community of human destiny has broad practical space. Since 2013, under the framework of building a community of human destiny, China initiatives such as the Belt and Road Initiative, the Global Development Initiative, the Global Security Initiative and the Global Civilization Initiative have made important contributions to meeting global challenges and promoting world development. China-Laos Railway has realized the long-cherished wish of the Lao people to "change the land lock country into a land link country", Jakarta-Bandung High-speed Railway has become the first railway in Southeast Asian countries to achieve a speed of 350 kilometers per hour, and the cooperation with China has revived the port of Piraeus, Greece. The fungus grass technology from China has been affectionately called "happy grass" by the Lesotho people, and "Luban Workshop" has helped young people in Tajikistan and other countries master vocational skills & HELIP; … From 2013 to 2022, the total import and export volume of countries jointly built by China and the Belt and Road Initiative reached US$ 19.1 trillion, with an average annual growth rate of 6.4%. According to the World Bank’s forecast, by 2030, the investment related to the "Belt and Road" initiative is expected to lift 7.6 million people out of extreme poverty and 32 million people out of moderate poverty. Numerous cases and data show that the concept of building a community of human destiny not only solves the urgent problems facing the world at present, but also solves the long-term problems of the sustainable development of human society in the future, creating tangible benefits for the people of all countries.

　　All good principles should adapt to changing times to remain relevant. China put forward the concept of building a community of human destiny, always advocated peace, development, cooperation and win-win, and persisted in being a builder of world peace, a contributor to global development and a defender of the international order. Looking forward to the future, the concept of building a community of human destiny will surely glow with more and more distinct truth power, more prominent leading role and ideological power beyond time and space, and open up a beautiful vision for common development, long-term stability and sustained prosperity for human society.

　　Yesterday afternoon, the Jiangsu delegation attending the Fourth Session of the 12th National People’s Congress held an inaugural meeting, and Chen Mengmeng, director of Jiangsu Provincial Environmental Protection Department, took a leave of absence.

　　At 4: 30 pm, at the end of the group meeting, he dragged his suitcase and appeared next to the elevator of Jingxi Hotel, waiting for the delegates.

　　He came a little late because of a meeting on a Sino-US atmospheric cooperation project. This project was designated by the Ministry of Environmental Protection to cooperate with the United States in Jiangsu, and this year is the third year of cooperation.

　　From the United States, China knows that the current ideas and methods of haze control are on the right path. The U.S. representative also told Chen Mengmeng that they had encountered problems in Beijing, so don’t worry.

　　This is the fourth year that Chen Mengmeng has come to Beijing to attend the National People’s Congress. As an environmental protection director, he pays attention to the air quality during the meeting every year.

　　In his view, although there is smog in Beijing during the two sessions every year, I can feel that the air is getting better and better and the blue sky is more.

　　Changzhi Haze of Beijing Environmental Protection Bureau is more experienced than us.

　　Beiqing Daily: Today is a foggy day. How do you feel about coming to the meeting as the director of the Environmental Protection Department?

　　Chen Mengmeng: It is the fourth year for me to attend the two sessions. Every time the two sessions are also prone to weather fluctuations in spring, it will not be a good day in the end, and there will be a few very good days, which also shows that there are still real environmental problems in the governance process. However, in the past four years, I feel that Beijing has improved on the whole, with more blue sky.

　　At the end of last year, because I was studying at the Party School, I happened to catch up with the heavy pollution, which Beijing had not seen in recent years. I can’t understand that it will be so heavy under such a large amount of emission reduction. Later, they explained that it was a meteorological reason, which shows that the long-term and complicated treatment of haze is still there.

　　As the director of the Environmental Protection Department, I naturally hope that it will be a good day to welcome the two sessions, and it will be a good day during the two sessions, and it will be maintained. In reality, such a day tells us that we still have a long way to go, and we still have to tighten this string. Although we have mastered the basic ideas and methods, governance is still a difficult process, which requires us to have enough patience and perseverance, and we must take resolute actions to accelerate our progress.

　　Beiqing Daily: Will you be worried about the environmental protection director in Beijing when you see this day?

　　Chen Mengmeng: I’m not worried. The director of environmental protection in Beijing has more experience in smog control than we do. At that time, Nanjing learned from Beijing to control smog.

　　Beiqing Daily: Will being the director of the Environmental Protection Department in the Yangtze River Delta be less stressful than the environmental protection chief in Beijing, Tianjin and Hebei?

　　Chen Mengmeng: It should be said that the environmental protection directors in this era are under great pressure, and each has its own difficulties. Environmental protection is a prominent problem at present, and it will naturally be stressful for the chief official to take responsibility. As for different regions, the Yangtze River Delta has problems with the Yangtze River Delta, and Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei has problems with Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei. I think we are just geographically different, and some of our tasks may be heavier than those of Beijing, Tianjin and Hebei, such as the water problem, and because the industry started earlier, our task of soil control is also heavier.

　　Beiqing Daily: Some people say that the pollution in the Yangtze River Delta is transmitted by Beijing, Tianjin and Hebei.

　　Chen Mengmeng: Both transmissions are available. Transmission is inevitable in the air flow, and it has always existed. We have always stressed that in such a large area of the Yangtze River Delta, air control should be based on itself, with external influences accounting for a part, leading or self-control, and we should control our own air well.

　　The idea of haze control in the "Thirteenth Five-Year Plan" is fine governance.

　　Beiqing Daily: For heavy pollution emergency, the Ministry of Environmental Protection should push a unified early warning standard. What are the benefits?

　　Chen Mengmeng: From a local perspective, we call on the state to set a unified standard. The most typical example is the heavy pollution last year. Some places in the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei region issued red warnings, while others did not, which was uneven. The reason for this is that autonomy is given to the local authorities, and your standards can only be issued at this level, and his standards can only be issued at that level. This is the difference in standards. If there is a unified standard, it is better to take consistent measures.

　　The common people also keep up with the joneses. His red warning has been issued. His children don’t need to go to school, so how can I do it? Another example is emission reduction. If an enterprise can produce in Tianjin, it cannot produce in Hebei. Therefore, it is best to unify them and all parties can better understand this measure.

　　Beiqing Daily: In terms of the treatment of haze, the source analysis work was carried out very early, but it seems that the public has not seen its role yet?

　　Chen Mengmeng: Source analysis is still very useful. It is necessary for accurate governance and clear direction. For active parsing, you need an active list. Source analysis only tells you how much cars contribute and how much coal is contributed, which may help us to understand the general direction and make efforts in a certain area. The source list is targeted, knowing the layout and total amount of various sources.

　　At present, the air quality assurance during the Youth Olympic Games and the military parade is still a relatively large-scale control. Whoever makes a big contribution will be allowed to reduce emissions, and enterprises such as steel, sintering and coal-fired boilers will be reduced. This is the result of source analysis. If the source list comes out, we can control the point source more pertinently.

　　Beiqing Daily: Is the source list only being done in Nanjing or all over the country?

　　Chen Mengmeng: Many cities all over the country are doing it. This is one of the ten requirements of the atmosphere. Future governance, such as the "Thirteenth Five-Year Plan", is more and more refined, more targeted, emergency, battle-like, and universal, which will be used in emergencies, but more often, we are determined to manage in the medium and long term.

　　Beiqing Daily: Why should we do fine governance?

　　Chen Mengmeng: Governance has costs, and it cannot be managed on a large scale. Social costs and economic costs should be considered. The so-called refined governance is to achieve the governance cost we want with the least cost and the most controllable cost. Refined governance is targeted governance.

　　Environmental governance has little impact on the economy.

　　Beiqing Daily: Recently, there is a view that smog has a great relationship with smuggling. What do you think?

　　Chen Mengmeng: At present, the crackdown on enterprises’ illegal activities is so great that it should be said that most enterprises dare not steal the arrangement, but a few do? There should be. It exists. If we say that there are cases of smuggling and lax law enforcement, we can’t enlarge them to the macro level, saying that this is the cause of pollution.

　　I don’t think it is possible that the so-called smuggling causes smog, or that the total amount of emissions does not match our calculation to the degree of subverting the base. Small-scale smuggling will not affect the smog in the country. We now detect that the decline of pm2.5, the improvement of air quality and the total emission reduction are basically the same, which is a positive effect.

　　Beiqing Daily: Last year, great efforts were made to control the environment, but there was also a voice that pollution control affected the economy, such as pollution control in Linyi.

　　Chen Mengmeng: Pollution control in Linyi is based on the environmental protection law. Later, the media also proved that pollution control is still good for promoting transformation and upgrading. In my opinion, enterprises that evade environmental protection costs will not have long-term vitality in the market. We want environmental protection and economy to complement each other, that is, we must grasp a rhythm, and enterprises that violate environmental protection laws must not be allowed to survive. Enterprises that affect people’s health and people’s livelihood must not be allowed to survive because of a few simple data. We have always said that environmental protection has forced transformation. Without environmental protection, there may be no transformation. After being forced, there will be better development at a new starting point.

　　Beiqing Daily: But in the economic downturn, how to spend such a painful period?

　　Chen Mengmeng: The economy is always fluctuating. Now the fundamentals of the economy are good. The so-called downward pressure on the economy is relatively large, which does not mean that we will cancel the environmental governance plan. Our governance is refined, and we rarely do things across the board, which should have a little impact on economic activities, but it is not very big. In this case, we must consider the bearing capacity of local areas, and the projects in the governance plan should be unswervingly promoted, which will give birth to a number of new industries, such as environmental protection industries, which in turn will support economic development and create new demands.

　　When the responsibility is unclear, the environmental protection department will be wronged

　　Beiqing Daily: In the past year, did you feel that environmentalists were a little harder?

　　Chen Mengmeng: Not only in the past year, but especially in recent years, the CPC Central Committee has attached so much importance to ecological civilization and given more and more understanding and support to all aspects of environmental protection work. If you talk about car-scrapping, we are confident, with more and more means of environmental protection and stronger self-confidence, which is for sure.

　　Beiqing Daily: However, Chen Jining, Minister of Environmental Protection, said a few days ago that there are still frequent local government interventions in environmental law enforcement. Have you met it?

　　Chen Mengmeng: It may happen all over the country, but this situation is getting less and less in Jiangsu. It should be said that local governments dare to blatantly intervene in environmental law enforcement and intervene in the pre-control of environmental protection with projects as the mainstay. At least, they dare not make it public.

　　Beiqing Daily: Last year, many people were held accountable in the field of environmental protection. Some provincial environmental protection department directors believe that some of them are not problems of environmental protection system, but the boards are all on environmental protection officials.

　　Chen Mengmeng: Many things that ordinary people don’t understand are considered environmental protection. Environmental protection is to monitor, supervise and supervise illegal activities. The environmental problems caused in front are not managed by environmental protection, and there may be cases where management is not in place. However, pollution is produced by various lines and must be treated together.

　　When pursuing the responsibility, the environmental protection department, as a department with supervision function, will definitely suffer some grievances when the responsibilities of various departments are unclear. Now the Jiangsu Provincial Party Committee and the provincial government are very clear, and the responsibilities of local governments, various departments and environmental protection departments are clearly divided. Our recent detailed rules on the accountability of party and government cadres for environmental protection have further clarified the accountability methods for various environmental protection responsibilities.

　　Beiqing Daily: Can this prevent environmental protection officials from being held accountable for environmental problems in the future?

　　Chen Mengmeng: In the past, environmental officials were not always held accountable. Apart from environmental protection, jobs in other industries will have similar difficulties. However, whenever accountability, such as safety in production, is pursued, the competent authorities will have such difficulties. In the past, it was true that the environmental protection responsibilities were unclear. Many things were assigned by the organization and we did it. We didn’t distinguish the responsibilities in advance. Once something happened, we would be held accountable. Who did it? I don’t know.

　　Environmental protection department cannot be regarded as Qingshui yamen.

　　Beiqing Daily: Last year, many environmental protection officials were dismissed, but in many people’s impressions, the environmental protection department is a clear water gate. Why are so many officials corrupt?

　　Chen Mengmeng: Environmental protection can’t be regarded as a clear water yamen. I have been in the environmental protection industry for many years. As soon as I came, I found that over the years, laws and governments have given environmental protection more and more power. It has the power of law enforcement, law enforcement and supervision, as well as the right to allocate funds and approve projects. Other departments rarely concentrate so much power on one department. For example, the National Development and Reform Commission can approve projects, but rarely go to enterprises for law enforcement.

　　In addition, for some small areas, such as hazardous waste supervision, the law gives the environmental protection department very detailed powers. If an enterprise makes a slight move, it must be approved and recognized, because there must always be a public institution to recognize it. Once the supervision is not good, corruption is likely to occur, and there are also such cases in the grassroots environmental protection system in our province. In recent years, our industry has been grasping all lines, and thanks to the country’s big anti-corruption situation, this situation has gradually improved.

　　Wenhe photo/reporter Zou Chunxia